Forum:MoS - Everyone Read
Kryten? What needs to be done on the Manual of Style? Aster/Digi/Rad/Kamiya, Ned/THB if you're still floating around somewhere, as well as anyone else who wants input, we need to sit down and at least get something done on it. It'll be much easier to tell the people who want to stay about how things are done around here with it. I know that wikis don't have a lot of pull in the fandom; hell, I'm part of two unpopular places (WtW blasts us, and the Tales community doesn't like the Aselia wiki), but I'd like to be able to get the things we do have straight. For now, we need an MoS on images, definitely beyond the not-watermarked things we have. I don't want more DMA recolors to end up here, and a policy shortcut will help stop people who want to stay. I want to do an image purge later of duplicate images and such edits and recolors; I'll take care of that myself alongside my species article project. I know I haven't been pulling my weight as an admin around here, so I want to jump start things. Anybody have more suggestions? Current MoS Draft can be found here: User:KrytenKoro/Draft, with the associated comments (probably outdated) Kryten and I made before coming up with it on the talk page. Lanate (talk) 03:34, 19 August 2009 (UTC) :Does WtW really hate us? Huh. I mean, I get DMA not liking us after how much I tell people they're unreliable (because they are), but I don't understand why WtW would hold a grudge. ::Man, I miss you guys. The DigimonWiki used to be the rope that bound us together. 04:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC) :Okay, here's what we need to finish on the MoS draft, and my personal ideas for what the policy should be: *A "game info" draft section, so people know what to fit it to. This should probably be an addendum, though. *Upload policy: No passing off fanart as official art - either use it in a fanspace article, or it's deleted. No full episode uploads, no amv's. All uploads should be usable on main articles, or should be hosted on photobucket/imageshack and externally linked. In addition, subjects do not need more than one image unless the second image is instructive beyond just the appearance of the subject. Like for the D-Reaper, the various charts that depict it's spread and hibernation area. Also "Toei images for anime articles, V-Jump images for manga articles, Bandai images for everything else". *Upload categorization explanation - possibly an addendum, as this is not a huge deal. Also, copyrighted images (most of them) should have a copyright summary like File:Pafumon b.jpg. Summary of that. *Fanspace policies - absolutely no mainspace categories, what infobox to use (the Fan Digimon one), exhortation to have a rudimentary page before creating. *Copyright and basic duplication policy - no watermarked images, don't use other people's fanart unless they've given permission. Don't copy article text from another site (digipedia's been ripped too often), though translating or paraphrasing is fine. *Trivia info policies: most articles are made to cover the subject's story. However, info on design and external appearances is good for the trivia section, and if it gets big enough, a full "Conception and Reception" section. However, no stupid minutiae like "Mimi is the first female character to appear that wears pink." and ridiculous over-specifics like that. However, stuff like "Marcus saying 'Got it memorized?' is based on Axel, another one of Quinton's roles," or "The convention-exclusive Transformer Roulette was designed to use Sakuyamon's color scheme, because it's designer was a fan of Digimon," should be okay. Moderation is the keyword here. *Naming conventions: we already have basic naming policies, but they need to be wider and general enough for all topics, from Transphotic Eddy to His Master's Voice *Talk pages: Chatting will be deleted, please take it to forum instead. *Coupling page policy: What passes for acceptable, and what style we want them in. Personally, I rather liked Aster Selene's essay format she used on her webpage, and I believe that as long as the various claims are verifiable, cited, or however she wants to do it, that would be great. Or, we could still have them function somewhat as "relationship" articles instead of specifically couplings. *Canon policy: What counts as canon. I think our unofficial policy on this is "If it's published under the Digimon name, it's fair game.", but if anyone has any objections, now's a good time to air them. *User page policy: in most cases, it's fair game, but there are certain reasons that others may edit your page, such as to correct coding or replace deleted images, etc. *Categorization policy: Including how redirects are categorized. Some of this could also go under just "Etiquette" or a similar "behavior" heading, rather than "style". "No personal attacks", "No spamming", "Be specific in criticism" and "Try to mediate arguments" would be good for that, too. We could also have in the addendum our policies on featured articles. 05:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC) Comments: *A "game info" draft section, so people know what to fit it to. :We should mention the ongoing DawnDusk and DW Data Squad projects and ask about working on those kind of projects for various pages or have them be patterned off it. *Upload categorization explanation - possibly an addendum, as this is not a huge deal. Also, copyrighted images (most of them) should have a copyright summary like File:Pafumon b.jpg. Summary of that. :In addition, there should probably be links to where the image came from; not direct links but links to the general page. *Fanspace policies - absolutely no mainspace categories, what infobox to use (the Fan Digimon one), exhortation to have a rudimentary page before creating. :How about this? If it doesn't have an Infobox or a paragraph at the bare minimum, it gets deleted. *Copyright and basic duplication policy - no watermarked images, don't use other people's fanart unless they've given permission. Don't copy article text from another site (digipedia's been ripped too often), though translating or paraphrasing is fine. :Watermarks should probably be covered under Upload Policy as well. And no editing out watermarks either. *Talk pages: Chatting will be deleted, please take it to forum instead. :Large discussions (like this one) should probably be done on the forum as well. *Coupling page policy: What passes for acceptable, and what style we want them in. Personally, I rather liked Aster Selene's essay format she used on her webpage, and I believe that as long as the various claims are verifiable, cited, or however she wants to do it, that would be great. Or, we could still have them function somewhat as "relationship" articles instead of specifically couplings. :Aster, opinions on this one? It's your domain. Though if we shift to general relationship articles, I wouldn't mind. *Canon policy: What counts as canon. I think our unofficial policy on this is "If it's published under the Digimon name, it's fair game.", but if anyone has any objections, now's a good time to air them. :Anything bearing the title Digimon, though probably qualifications should be used for not well known information. Like anything coming from Digimon Tamers 1984 or the manga/manhua adaptations, for example, as their exact contents are not well known. *Categorization policy: Including how redirects are categorized. :Quick question: Is Category:Redirects from Digimon an outdated artifact or what? If it is, is there a bot which can delete them all for us? I think that's all I can think of for now. Lanate (talk) 06:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC) :All of that works for me. The category is a remnant from wikipedia, I believe, and would have been on every redirect we haven't taken it off of. Thus, totally redundant. 16:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC) ::Wait, is it all of WtW that hates us, or just Vamde? (BTW, after seeing what he/she has written about us, I had to send an e-mail correcting the misconceptions. Sorry if I went out of line, but...just so pissed off.) 16:34, 19 August 2009 (UTC) :Didn't their card place tell you off when you asked to share card scans? And Vamde's an affiliate of WtW as well... *shrugs* There's no need to get into a full out bitch war anyway; we have different goals in different places. As long as we respectfully disagree to help each other, it should be fine anyway. Lanate (talk) 16:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC) ::Okay. I'll apologize to Vamde then. :::On a related note - We should also have some kind of policy for how foreign info is incorporated. Right now, we are almost exclusively Japanese/English, and we have no good way to insert info on the Spanish, French, etc. dubs. We need to figure out some way to do that that doesn't clog up the infoboxes. 16:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC) :How would we do that though? Mention that in so and so version, x is true? Add stuff to the Trivia section? Lanate (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC) ::Most of this would just be name differences, so I think the way we do it at Paildramon would be okay. For term differences, I think a trivia section would work. Finally, for voice actors - well, that's the main problem. Do we want to just throw it in there with the En and Ja VA's? It's not like we're going to find that many on our own, so we could just leave it for interested editors to add. 19:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC) ::Okay, I got an e-mail back: Vande thinks Megchan's translations are "more official" than the official subbed episodes, and I've got to say that it's funny that everything Vande complains about us doing, wikimon does as well (since we share policies, editors, and info with them), yet he lauds wikimon as "the only reliable Digimon wiki". ::I know I shouldn't be continuing this, and I promise to stop now, but it's just so...illogical. 18:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC) :Ignore him. We're all fan dumb in some way. :The series pages have a collapsible section for their other networks. Can we do something to the Char Info templates for the same thing? :And, god, what I would pay for the text resources Shiroi Hane has, but that's merely a side note. Lanate (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC) ::Hm, I read the draft. Given as I'm not well-versed in anything Digimon besides the five anime seasons I had a bit of a struggle reading it but I made it in the end. I like it now, although like I said I was barely able to keep up so I might have missed something. ::I'm just curious, but do any Digimon names at all use hiragana? ::I think we need a more comprehensive section on grammar. We have too many people putting stuff up like "sora is an important membar of th team"... ::Input on the fan pages: Is there a separate place for fanart? ::Couplings...well, firstly, I'd like to keep the fansites out of the Couplings pages. If we listed all of the fansites possible for a ship, it would get very, very out of hand with the huge list...I'd also like to keep fanart out of it, people seem to think it's just as good as official content (someone is particularly stubborn about putting a Taito fanart on the page)...We also need to make a format; there's a strict format I made (notice the similarity on the top of each 'ship article) and NOBODY seems to listen to it... ::I've also observed that fangirls can be very, very vicious. They'll do anything to protect their ship and declare it canon. And that goes as far to stupid things like "Kari was the first person to go up to T.K. when everyone went to greet him"...I mean, I'm stooping for things as low as someone telling another person to come back (which even in itself is ridiculous)...but I can't stand things like (this is a true story) people putting something on the bottom of the Jurato page saying "jurato is like daikari because it is very obvious and canon!!"... ::What people don't seem to grasp is that while it is a fan section it's still meant to be informative, not some place where fangirls can work out their obsessive ship-urges. ::A relationships section...well, that only works with something like Suzumiya Haruhi when there are only five major characters...Especially for Adventure/02, it's 132 total relationships alone, which is a pain to write. And that's when you limit it to Chosen Children only (which is why I'm doing that now for the Couplings page given that otherwise we'd have far too many couples to keep track of)... ::Just some thoughts. Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC) ::http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/Digimon has some stuff we should probably cover somewhere. ::For fanart, I don't know if there's a specific gallery for it, but I generally let any fanart that is used in a fan-article stay, unless they try and put it in the mainspace. Then it gets burninated. A gallery might be a good idea, and we could do a site-notice to point people towards the fanspace. ::Monzaemon uses Hiragana, and I think Z'd Garurumon uses Latin letters, but besides that it's katakana all the way, baby. (Sorry.) ::For the fansite bit, I meant more that the essay format you had on your fansite was actually quite good, and possibly more professional than what we have now. A list format encourages shippers to note every single instance they can think of, while a well-thought out and organized essay would require more thought to add to, and somewhat discourage the vicious fangirls. ::If we do do a relationship reformat, we don't need one for every pair of characters - just the significant ones, like Henry and Takato, or possibly Renamon and Impmon. These relationships can be important to the plot without ever being romantic. Of course, as the Fan: admin the decision is completely up to you, these are just suggestions. 06:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC) :Category:Fanart Images works as a fanart gallery on the actual page. One of the reasons why I like categorizing images is that it creates a ready-made gallery already, especially if we name the files correctly. :Hiragana: Monzaemon, WaruMonzaemon, Burpmon, and Ohakadamon, to my knowledge. Z'd Garurumon uses katakana. :Oh, I have a quick question. For names, it goes anime > Bandai-America > official JP romanization, right? 'Cause I have Babydmon as Bebydomon, Brakedramon for Breakdramon, and ZeedGarurumon for Z'd Garurumon from Championship. Granted, the last one's acceptable, because, to be fair, ZeedMillenniummon's Zeed was the same katakana, but Brakedramon is a homonym confusion totally missing his power to destroy everything. And Bebydomon? That just says they didn't try, even worse than BioSupinomon and BioRotosmon—it's like Dawn's Rekisumon. : ;_; I can't find Cardmon images and I refuse to steal from DMA. Since I don't have any recording material, it looks like I'm gonna have to go, uh, do something slightly illegal with my copy of DW3 to get images for them. And fix their names. Also, for images, is it possible to replace all the cropped card images with the actual card or does it not matter? Do you know where people get their Toei images? I need a replacement for Susanoomon, though I guess I can always use a card if worse comes to worst. :Oh, Kryten, if you're worried about the anime VA (look at Taichi "Tai" Kamiya for the stuff I ripped off of ANN and remind me to cite them later), the Anime template's got a collapsible box for other networks. Couldn't we do the same for VA's on the Character Infobox? Lanate (talk) 06:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC) ::I can give you software to let you play PS games on your PC, but the only way to transfer your saved game involves modding your Playstation. You can probably find finished save files on the internet, though, and use those for image taking, or if your computer's fast enough to handle it (mine can only go 10% speed most of the time), just replay through it. ::Most of the Toei images seem to be from the Toei site, hidden away somewhere. I could swear I have a Susanoomon Toei image somewhere, though I don't remember where I got it. ::If we want I could see us placing Bandai-America behind official romanization, but I'd have no idea how many articles we'd have to move to do that. The problem with Bebydomon is that that's its only appearance besides the card. To be fair to the translator, "Babyd" is less of a single word than "Bebydo", which is apparently a surname. Personally, while its an insulting name, I think we can let it be the article name, and just ignore it within the actual article, or something similar. Erg. Sometimes I wish the dubbers would have some kind of forum for their translations, or ask somewhere. It's not like anything is being kept a secret, since anyone who would visit the forum would already know about the Japanese list of appearing characters. ::The collapsible box would definitely work. Since we're an English wiki, we'd cover the English VA, and since it's Japanese material, we'd cover the Japanese VA. Anything else, while informative and just as important as the English VA, is collapsible to us. 07:03, 22 August 2009 (UTC) :Is there a way to just link into the other-language wikis? I'm sure there's a Spanish counterpart or something...Often I find that when language issues come into play then it's a good solution Only dead fish go with the flow. 15:06, 22 August 2009 (UTC) :I could try to rework the pages into essays. Usually that requires someone who ships the couple to write it (as mostly I don't see what goes into ships like Sora x Takeru at all) and that leads to ranting and fangirlish remarks on the essay. Is there a way we could keep the essay and throw out the fangirlism? :"Major" relationships section...now, I'm all for it, but then if we did like a relationship between Taichi and Yamato, for instance, then some skeptic might claim that it's also important to do Taichi x Jou (claiming that while someone could look at Taichi and Yamato's relationship as romantic, if one would sink down to relationships then Taichi x Jou is important too)...and then we'll also have to deal with the morons putting stuff up yelling "TK AND KARI ARe IN LOOOOVE"...But I'll see what I can do and think about it. :I think there IS a forum (that's how I know Jeff Nimoy is a Sorato hater, because he said it himself) but they haven't updated it in years...Only dead fish go with the flow. 15:11, 22 August 2009 (UTC) GameFAQs has enough saved files to last me, and I've got my own methods. It's be slightly awkward as I work up the effort, but I'll do it. I'll edit the character and digimon infoboxes to include a collapsible "other actors" section and mod Tai's page to fix it. Is this it for now? I can start adding information to the draft soon. Lanate (talk) 02:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Alrighty.... anything I don't mention, I agree with. Was it mentioned that the MoS will replace the General Guidelines? I can't remember. *Couplings: I guess it makes more sense to eventually adapt these into relationship articles more than just coupling proof pages eventually. Maybe have coupling pages for romantic/Chosen Children couplings, and relationship articles for anything else (other characters, Digimon?)? Couplings should be Chosen Children only, use good taste, have decent ammount of info before creating the page, and it's the fans' responsibility to add their ships, not ours. Delete anything that isn't reasonable or has some semblance of proof. Although a pain, essays are probably the way to go in the future. *Canon: Honestly, Digimon's canon is a mess. Anything that has the Digimon name should be considered official, but we know that there are things that don't fit into "canon", like Digimon_Hurricane_Landing!!/Transcendent_Evolution!!_The_Golden_Digimentals. If it seems like it fits, or is referenced somewhere else, than it should be canon. (On a side note, The Door to Summer references The Golden Digimentals, so does that mean that they are both out of canon, or do they exist in some alternate-canon universe, or what?) Maybe if something seems out of canon, state it, and carry on. *User pages: If someone has a good reason to edit, then they can. (coding, etc.). Also, your user talk page isn't your property to delete and do with as you please. *Wikipedia: I think we should state something in the MoS about to not bother in updating Wikipedia, as they don't seem to want us to anyway. *VA's: We should probably try to add every voice actor we can, but I don't think it's a big priority. *Grammar: Use proper grammar/spelling. Don't be an idiot. *Standards: Less than templating every style of article, we should set up a set of standards for different articles, or use examples for what they should look like. (like And so it begins... for episodes, etc.) *Fanhistory: We should add some important facts/milestones, but I don't see the point in repeating it. It's there if people want to see it. If we start having articles on important fans and such, what's stopping from having articles on every fan/author. Speaking of which, do we want any articles on authors/fan sub groups/fans, like Chris McFeely or Ryuu-Rogue? That's all I can think of for now. I think we should move/write/create/add the MoS for now, and add info/discuss as we see fit.---- Rad140 "RAWR? NO UPDATES!?" 22:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC) Is the MoS going to replace all Guidelines (ie. Coupling pages), or just the general one? If we can, it think it should try to encompass information/replace the other guidelines. Frankly, it can be confusing to have guideline pages for different types of articles scattered throughout the wiki, when they could be covered in one article or at least grouped together somewhere.---- Rad140 Dear vandal, I'm not afraid to rollback your ass. 17:51, October 8, 2009 (UTC) :I think it was originally intended for mainspace, but there is the Fan space extension that was there, so I think it's supposed to encompass the entire wiki. Lanate (talk) 18:11, October 8, 2009 (UTC) ::So, basically stick everything else from every other guideline/instructional page and put it into the MoS?---- Rad140 Dear vandal, I'm not afraid to rollback your ass. 02:35, October 9, 2009 (UTC) :I think that's probably best. Lanate (talk) 02:49, October 9, 2009 (UTC) Also, something should be added about trying to link to relevant information wherever possible- either through a direct link or storylinking. For example, if you say "Examplemon first evolves to Exammon when Human summoned courage", link to the episode or storylink it.---- Rad140 Message 21:42, January 22, 2010 (UTC)